Passive Investing into Self Storage Real Estate with Scott Krone

October 27, 2022

Expert CRE Secrets Podcast

Mr. Krone is a Chicago native whose career in architecture began in 1991 by pursuing his Masters of Architecture from the Illinois Institute of Technology. While obtaining his degree, he also worked as a Project Manager for Optima, Inc.

In 2012, Krone founded Coda Management Group – a firm that specializes in managing real estate assets. Since its inception, Coda has managed a wide range of real estate, including single and multifamily homes, retail, commercial warehouse, self-storage, and multi-use flex athletic spaces. Currently, the platform of investments is in excess of $54 million.

In 1998, Krone founded Coda, an award-winning Design + Build | Sustainability | Consulting firm. Since its inception, Coda has won numerous design/build awards, including the international Green GOOD Design Award in 2010, Best of Houzz 2014 and 2015, and Design Evanston Award.

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Passive Investing into Self Storage Real Estate with Scott Krone

Brett:

I'm excited about our next guest. He is a part of the CoDa Management Group, and they purchase undervalued warehouse space warehouses and convert them into climate-controlled class REIT-ready Self-Storage properties and so much more that we're gonna learn about him. He's from the Great Chicago land area. Please bear with me Scott Krone. Scott, how are you doing?

Scott:

Doing well. Thanks for having me on the show. I'm really looking forward to this.

Brett:

By the way, you can learn more about Scott Krone at codamg.com, that's codamg.com. We're talking all things passive investing into self-storage real estate today. But before we get there Scott, would you give our listeners a little bit more about your story and your current focus?

Scott:

My background is in architecture, I got my master's degree from Illinois in technology, way back in 1994. During that time, I was a TA for my professor who owned a real estate development architectural and contracting firm, which was focused predominantly on multifamily. My background is in multifamily development. My master's thesis was a 400 unit 100 million dollar project that I worked on, while in school, but also in his office, and so I was doing multifamily for six years, and then I started my own company at the very, ripe age of 28, and looking back on it probably a little too soon. But we began on this single-family multifamily side. Then when the crash of 08 or 09 came when we focused on multifamily, and then 13, we be in our first cell source development, and we did that and flipped it to compass self-storage, and then we've been sold off our multifamily portfolio, and I've been expanding our self-storage portfolio since then, and this past year, we just launched our own self-storage brand, one-stop self-storage.

Brett:

We're gonna talk about why self-storage has been one of the safest bets in real estate in the past 50 years, a $38 billion industry. One in 10 Americans pays an average of $92 a month to use self-storage and self-storage. He has had a 7.7% annual growth since 2012, and so much more here in a minute. But I want to take one other step back, Scott, I want you to go back to the high school days, I believe we've all been given certain gifts in this life. Some people call it strengths, some people call them superpowers, I think their God-given gifts that are given to us to be a blessing and help to others. I'm curious, what is that one or two gifts that you believe you were given? How does that help? How do you help and bless people today?

Scott:

Well, and I think there's, it's a very intense question, and I say that because it is not a negative thing. But a very positive thing. I would say the one super thing that I have is I have the ability to sort of seeing what's coming down the pipeline a little bit sooner rather than later, and I was able to alter our investment strategy, prior to the internet bust, and then also to the real estate bust, and then currently what we're doing now, so I'm not perfect at timing things. But I can certainly get a glance, see what's happening in the landscape. One of the things that we're doing is how we how we've been able to avoid a lot of overbuying and making sure that we're buying at the correct level, and then what I also do outside of real estate is just my ability to help people through different situations, and so I'm willing to, provide my insight, in my experience, to help people avoid some of the problems that I've, seen and dealt with and learn from. those are the things I think other people would say about me as opposed to what I just feel about myself.

Brett:

See what's coming down the road sooner rather than later, and make adjustments, and help those to take action. Is that a fair summary?

Scott:

That is a great summary.

Brett:

Let's dive right into passive investing into self-storage, real estate. What's the number one secret? Scott, I mentioned some of these major stats, including they're over 4 to 8,000 self-storage facilities in the US and that there are more self-storage units in the US than McDonald's and Starbucks locations combined, which is pretty staggering. Most people maybe don't know about that but give us the number one secret to taking these stats, understanding them, and investing passively to make a good return.

Scott:

Well, the main reason why I'm focused on self-storage versus apartments in multifamily at this point in time is a few different reasons. One, it's a much more predictable business model. Some I deemed recession-resistant, others had deemed it recessionary proof. But we went back and studied all the major recessions, from inflation all the way up through the current one, which technically wasn't a recession, but we're certainly experiencing a recessionary type. circumstances, and so in each of those cases, self-storage slightly dipped, but then rebounded very aggressively, and it's always stayed around 88 to 90% occupied during that entire time period. It's a very consistent and predictable business model, and we can also go look at a specific market and ascertain what our supply and demand are so that we don't go into situations where there's too much supply already in the marketplace, we can avoid those areas. That's the reason why we're doing it is just that it's a lot more predictable in terms of the business model compared to multifamily.

Brett:

So predictable, recession-resistant, occupied 80 to 90%. It's consistent, and it's more predictable, I guess, maybe the overall first part of that theme, is that correct?

Scott:

That's absolutely correct.

Brett:

What's the second secret or second step too, it could even be investing with you, maybe what an investor should be asking, maybe they're looking at me, they see the sexy multifamily. I don't even call mobile home parks sexy, but you might say like, It's it used to be, but that's kind of the secret out there, too. Walk us through, a high net worth accredited investor looking at potentially investing, and you're making the case for self-storage on that first part of it, but will it be the next thing compared to those other two?

Scott:

Well, I don't think anyone's ever accused self-storage of being sexy. But I would say that 50% of our investors are doing it for tax strategies, as opposed to growth. There are three different types of assets within self-storage, and we equate them to different stocks. One would be Penny's blue chip and growth, and we're predominantly focused on the growth and, and the blue-chip, in terms of good annual cash flow, but also the appreciation. But more importantly, the different tax structures that we have set up in order to help protect or defer capital gains. We've done everything from historic tax credits. We've done multiple cost segregations, one upon acquisition, and then one upon redevelopment. We can load up on the depreciation schedules at that point in time, and then the most powerful tool that we've implemented is the opportunity zones, which actually wipes out any tax gains, and worst case is a tax deferment. But the best case is a complete wipeout of any tech capital gains taxes.

Brett:

This is gonna be fun. We're gonna dive into the pros and cons of some tax deferral and some strategies. It's really cool. It gives good annual depreciation. I could say it's no longer just about cash flow, it's about tax flow. It's always been about both. But increasingly more as taxes are going up. As Congress and the government are spending more. They're trying to figure out ways to pay for all this, and part of that strategy for some is to raise taxes. What's amazing about commercial real estate, as you mentioned, you get depreciation and you can do what's called cost segregation. Define for our listeners, the schedule, are you on 39 years for self-storage as a commercial property, and then if you buy an average, let's say $10 million deal. I know with multifamily. We've seen you do a cost study of 20% of the land, typically it's not, it's not depreciable. You get 80% of the building of that about 25%, you can maybe get in the first year as a kind of a good rule of thumb. I'm curious, what are some of the numbers when it comes to self-storage? Let's say if you bought a $10 million dollar facility, what percentage of that? Are you actually able to do the bonus depreciation in the first year?

Scott:

Well, you're right, they break out the land, and then they break out all the mechanical equipment and all the different things and so they create the life schedule for each of those, and they create a separate depreciation schedule based on that. We typically have seen on the acquisition is maybe a little bit lower, like around 50% In the first year, and then once we improve it in, let's call it year two, then it gets higher up to like almost 60% in terms of the force depreciation, and so then we're able to carry forward those potential depreciation losses for the next 10 years. The average hold is five years and that's why we’ve done the cost segregation.

Brett:

I love that. It's the challenge we found for a lot of our clients before they meet us is, it's all great for the first three to five years. But then upon the exit and a lot of the syndicators we work with, they don't do 1031 exchanges for a number of reasons, some do. But I'd say 95%, don't, the GPs go their separate ways, the LPs go their separate ways, and then we all regroup and go at it again, plus, in a 1031 exchange, the old appreciation schedule travels, which is not ideal. Talk to us, are you doing 1031 exchanges. What's your biggest frustration with that, and then, of course, we'll jump on the opportunity zone part of this.

Scott:

We do not do 1031. A lot of our investors have chosen to avoid the 1031s and invest with us with the opportunity zones, mostly because of the fact that one, you have to maintain the exact same structure and relationship, the debt and capital stack, but also the fact that how much-limited timeframe that you have to identify it, and then move into one, and so there's a lot of pressure to buy something that you might not necessarily want to buy, but you have to buy because of the timeframe. Within OZ (Opportunity Zone), we have a lot greater timeframe because let's say we, if you buy if you sell something, let's call it January 31 of the year, you have 45 days within 1031 to identify and then the X amount of time to close afterward, within an opportunity zone, you have the entire year to determine and then you have to file your taxes. then you have that determines what your real capital gain is, and then you have until June 29 of the following year to fund the zone, and then once this zone is funded, then we can apply it to a property so you have a lot more timeframe, and you can divide it. Do you want to pull some of those capital gains and use them for other things, you don't have to use 100% of your gain all within the Opportunity Zone you can delineate or choose where you want to put your money instead of everything on one.

Brett:

Speaking to the power of diversification and the power of time, which to me, especially in a highly appreciated marketplace, those are your best friends along with liquidity as maybe a next part of them to be able to capture and purchase deals potentially at a discount. That's interesting at the beginning of the backup as well, you said you don't typically do 1031 exchanges, because the whole entity must move in the whole capital stack. Debt capital stack must be, it's equal or greater value, equal or greater debt, generally speaking, for 1031 exchanges. The other challenge is you might buy a property for 10, put 2 million into it and sell it for 25, and your sweet spot is buying anywhere from eight to 12. Due to the value add. Once you get into the 25 to the 30 or $40 million deals, which is chasing the deals up, perhaps there are even more institutional buyers that are competing at a different scale, which can also make a good challenge to actually make money on the deal. Can you kind of speak to this, buying the deal based upon the intrinsic value add not buying it, just to defer the tax.

Scott:

That's our main strategy, adding value to things. That's my role as a developer. We're always looking to increase the value and get an appreciation that way. My cousin is the main read buyer, and he does it for unions, and all they're doing is looking for cash flow. They're buying cash, and they're willing to do a three and a 5% cap rate, and because that's the yield that they need to capture for their pension funds. That's if you're trying to compete against that in terms of growth, that's a tough market to be built in, and so that's why we like the product, I mean, that's another great point. When we're doing self-storage, we're 10% of the valuation of multifamily, and so I can, I can create 800, six 800 units at 10%, of the cost of multifamily, and so I can diversify and reduce risk dramatically because of that compared to multifamily.

Brett:

That's a great point, especially with construction costs going higher and higher and higher, and a lot of challenges there, and by the way, I also want to touch on 1031. I call it the shotgun wedding, the 45 days to get engaged in 180 days to get married, and it's just not great. I was at Marcus & Millichap in 2006, and everyone's given high fires when they were sellers. They hated to be buyers, but they didn't want to pay the tax. Then the music stopped and I saw some lose half or all and had to dig themselves out in the next three to five years, and the number one thing we identified with the 1031 exchange, they would not have purchased the property if it wasn't for the capital gains tax of 30 to 50%, and they felt trapped by that and so they just kept doing it, and then they got hurt because they didn't have enough diversification.

As liquidity, they had too much debt, and so we quickly learned about a Deferred Sales Trust in 2009, and we started to use that as a way to eliminate the need for 1031 Exchange, we actually just did it for a syndicator out of $20 million deal out of Vegas, they sold a multifamily property, and they also don't do the 1031 exchanges for all the reasons we talked about. But they put their GP interest into these, these, these, these trusts, and they did another $16 million multifamily property and the same thing, they put their GP interest into the same trust that kept kind of piling it up, and then they can use the funds to go back into their own deals all tax-deferred, and I think it's the Netflix the best-kept secret to the commercial real estate world. Most people don't know about it. Some people get confused with the Delaware Statutory Trust, which is another form of 1031. But I'm curious, have you ever heard of a Deferred Sales Trust? What is what I'm saying resonates with you?

Passive Investing into Self Storage Real Estate: “One of the things that we're doing is how we've been able to avoid a lot of overbuying and making sure that we're buying at the correct level, and then what I also do outside of real estate is just my ability to help people through different situations.” – Scott Krone

Scott:

I have heard of it, and we have not implemented it. We're in the expansion growth period at this point in time. Our model is to develop a portfolio of between 100 million and $150 million so that we can then liquidate at that point in time, and so we're in the expansion. When we get into the liquidation, then we will certainly be exploring those options.

Brett:

Also to that point, we can do some estate tax things, too. I think sometimes the tiger by the tail is just the cap gains taxes, which are the opportunity zones. I don't want to dig in a little bit more on some of what you have going on those. But that's just the cap gains tax, that's the tiger you're getting by the tail, the elephant in the room is the estate tax, that's 40%, and those exemptions are set to be cut in half by 2025. Biden also proposed to take the 7 million married three and a half singles, even lower than that I won't even go there. What but, but that's like a big thing right now. This massive amount of wealth that's transferring, without having to buy insurance, give it all away to charity, or do all the gifting. We're using what's called the DST 2.0 to move all the funds outside of taxable estate in one transaction, we just did it for a deal in Colorado for a client.

They've been in real estate their entire life $25 million clients initial to $5 million assets, no basis, and their biggest thing of using the DST 2.0 was to be able to move it outside their taxable state to save that 40%.that's also something that any of our listeners want to learn more about that can go to capital gains tax solutions.com, and we can strategize on that. But let's dive back into the oz part of what we were talking about. Are there some opportunity zone deals that you're working on right now that people are selling cryptocurrency or businesses or real estate that can take advantage of do they need to be accredited? What does that look like if they're gonna work with you, Scott?

Scott:

We created the first opportunity zone, in pay steel in Northwest Ohio, and maybe, in the country with the combination of those two things, is a privately funded pace project, and we did it back before the regulations even came out. In fact, I was on the phone with the IRS trying to understand what the rules and regulations were going to be because, at that point in time, they only published, the three cores of a page of the legislation, and so we implemented at that point in time because we found out that our property wasn’t analyzed, and we hadn't closed on it yet, and so we went to our investors and said, would anyone be interested in this, we had people come forward, and, we credited for them. Our opportunity zones, we don't charge anything for our investors on it, because ultimately they're investing in our projects. That was something that we just created and did for them for their benefit, and then the following Christmas, everyone came back to us and said, What are you going to do with your next one?

In our next two projects, we've had three projects in the opportunity zones, where we've, raised money. A substantial significant portion of our overall capital stack is the opportunity's own funds. That is, how we've structured them, and it's the primary thing because you pointed out, I think that we're going to go into a full-blown recession, depending on what happens with this upcoming tax code. I mean, between attacking 1031s attacking the capital gains, and all the different ways in which interest, inheritance tax, those are the three major tax shelters that investors go to. The only one that they're not attacking is the opportunity zone because it was actually established in the Obama administration in which Biden was obviously the vice president. But they didn't choose to do anything with it. It sat dormant and idle until Trump came into office, and then Trump began promoting it, and then that's where it came into full legislation.

The gentleman who created it was Steve Glickman, and he was literally twiddling his thumbs in the Obama administration because they would not touch it, and so when Trump came in, because he was according to Glip, and trying to deflect a question, his phone started ringing off the hook, and that's why it became the most bipartisan agenda and legislation that was passed because both sides saw the power and recognized it and it's incredibly funded program, and so There's, originally Biden on his campaign webpage was talking about how he was going to talk about changing or implementing social change within it, which I don't know how the IRS would actually monetize or determine what amount of social change had been productive. To me, that's the biggest challenge of what he was proposing. But since that period of time, he's been absolutely silent on opportunities so I think opportunity zones are one of the few things that have not been thrown out there as how they're going to impact taxes.

Brett:

We get that common question too. With a Deferred Sales Trust, we go, take away 1031 exchanges. You're taking when the Deferred Sales Trust like it's not even being talked about. It's completely separate. It's based on IRC 453, which is just an installment sale to the seller carry-back, and so it's separate. But I want to focus on opportunity zones, moving to a quick example, for some of our listeners this imagines he bought a Bitcoin for $1, it's worth a million dollars, you have all this gain, you sell it. You move it into an opportunity zone, you hold it for 10 years there, you gotta pay some tax, I think a year three, maybe four, you got to pay. But then if you buy then at that point, you can grow tax-free on a lot of where you're at. Just walk us through some of those benefits, just briefly, and what that potential I know, it's, no promises here on your self-storage facility opportunities. Just what do you think might that million turn into over like a 10 to 12 year period of time?

Scott:

Well, first of all, I'm not a CPA, so please rely on your, your own tax attorney to advise you on this. Our understanding of the tax law is based upon our conversations with the IRS as well as our own CPAs. Is this that thing of it is like an IRA you cannot be a disqualified investor. You are the investor who can invest in a fund, then the fund can then invest in the third-party project. That's how we set it up. A is the investor, B is the fund, C is the project. The fund is actually a member of the entity that owns the LLC. When you deposit money into the account, it immediately becomes tax-deferred, and if you invest for two years, and then you pull it out of the fund, you defer your taxes for those two years. It's at year five that you begin to diminish your tax liability on that capital gains. You have that million dollar capital gain, then it's deferred until five years after that your tax basis on the capital gain gets reduced at seven years, it gets further reduced at 10 years, it's completely wiped out, as long as it stays in the fund. If we sell the property, we can then buy another asset to maintain it because of the fact that the money has not left the fund.

In addition, as you pointed out, the growth in the fund is tax-free, and so that's why it's one of the most powerful tax tools out there. Keep in mind, the original tax code was designed to encourage growth, it was designed to inter encourage risk, and there's like there's a value to that risk, and they're saying, if you're willing to take that risk, then we're willing to give you a reduction in your taxes, because we identify that you are doing something on the benefit of the country, by risking your capital to help the economy grow, and that's my biggest complaint about what's with the approach and the tax code in alternate is they're no longer recognizing the risks that investors do take, and they're no longer willing to give people that benefit for taking that risk, and to me, that's inherently the biggest, the problem that I have with the modifications to the tax code.

Brett:

I couldn't agree with you more. I did hear that they're actually easing up on 1031, and they, again, it's not finalized. But there are thoughts of, they're not going to be taking that away, maybe like we thought maybe we’re a few months back, and then also the stepped-up basis. Looks like that's off the table. Again, we'll see what finally comes through. But these are all things to consider and to make sure that you're doing planning with your CPA, or connecting with us if you're looking to clarify some capital gains tax deferral options, or getting a Scott if you're looking at the opportunity zones, by the way, you can go to codamg.com. That's codamg.com. Scott, all that being said we're running out of time. You are ready for the lightning round and but before we go there, I want you to mention real quick, credit investors’ current self-storage Opportunity Fund, would it be just going to codamg.com people want to learn more about that?

Scott:

Yes, we do work with accredited as well as sophisticated, we can have a limited number of surface sophisticated investors, but now the changes in the accredited, most sophisticated are becoming accredited. The other thing I'd like to point out as a real risk is if they do make the modifications to the IRA Roths people that have assets with IRA Roth are going to be under tremendous pressure to liquidate their assets. They don't compromise the entire IRA Roth, and that is one of the major tax things that are coming down the pipeline.

Brett:

Touch base on that a little bit more. Would that also mean? What would opportunity zones be a solution for that potentially?

Scott:

They would be. But obviously, the challenge is that there's only some, there's a limited amount of properties that are in opportunity zones. The question is, how are they going to expand it and how are they going to continue it, because the opportunity zones were a 10-year program, and so they're going to have to be looking at how they continue and how they further expand it.

Brett:

That's a great point, and I mean, I've seen a lot of deals, and a very a lot of deals and invest in real estate deals. It just seems like it's really hard to find that diamond in the rough. It's also an opportunity zone, it's just, it's hard to find deals in general, but especially in opportunity zones. That's why you do want to get with folks who are who have a value add, approach, a track record already in place, that have been doing this for many years, like Scott Krone, his team, so that you're, you're on the tax tail, wag the investment dog, you're just letting the dog wag the dog and then you're happy to get the benefits on the tax incentives. Scott, any last thoughts on that?

Scott:

I agree with what you're saying, and, that's one of the things that we do is we're buying, assets that are, $13 per square foot and then we're converting in something different because they were not able to sell it the valuation they were hoping so that's, that's the main value add.

Brett:

Excellent. Are you ready for a lightning round?

Scott:

I am.

Brett:

Knowing what you know now if you go back to your 25-year-old self, what's the one golden nugget you make sure to tell yourself to do?

Scott:

Be more patient? You don't have to rush to start your company at 28. Make sure you get a good team and understanding of what's going on and develop that and build that and get your experience will help you down the road.

Brett:

Second question. What's the number one book you've recommended or gifted the most in the past year?

Scott:

The Road Back To You by Ian Morgan Cron. It's a great book about personalities and understanding your own self and then also understanding others and, and it was the concept developed by fourth-century monks, and it's very applicable even to today.

Brett:

We're big fans of the Rich Dad, Poor Dad, philosophy books, everything, Robert Kiyosaki. Just curious, what's the one part of the Rich Dad Poor Dad strategy that you try to implement? Or any wisdom you can share with our audience about that?

Scott:

Buying? That's the whole thing that we make our money on the acquisition, not on the sale, and so we're not planning on that, and, we have to buy below what we feel as market price because ultimately, we have more ability to correct or stay competitive if we don't overpay on the front end.

Brett:

Second, the last question, what are you most curious about right now?

Scott:

I'm most curious about what's going to be happening down the pipeline. I'm spending an inordinate amount of time just researching and understanding what was being proposed, and what are the repercussions of it. It's a huge factor that we talked about with the IRA. , a significant portion of our investors have IRAs, and I've done it for the tax shelter portion of it, and if that if those if they're under the pressure that they have to liquidate, it's going to change the landscape tremendously, because everyone's going to be selling, and the question is, who's going to be the buyer?

Brett:

Very well said the last question. After all the people you've helped building the company you built and investing in developing and doing the deals you've done? How do you stay centered in your values? How do you still stay encouraged to charge to reach new heights?

Scott:

I began a two-year program with the transforming center that works on leadership. The majority of people are in ministry, but I've chosen to do it. There's about 20% of us that are not just leaders, and we're looking at the program to develop our leadership skills, and so that is how I'm investing in myself. We're in our fourth quarter, and we're in our fourth. I guess it is the fourth quarter. We'd be quarterly out of a nine nine-quarter program. That is how I'm doing that right now.

Brett:

Scott, I want to thank you for being on the show. I want to encourage you to keep using the gifts that you've been given of seeing what's coming down the road. Reacting sooner rather than later and helping people create and preserve our wealth and self-storage investing. For our listeners who want to get in touch with you, would you remind them one last time what's the best place for them to find you?

Scott:

Well Brett, what I like to do is offer each of your investors a gift or your listeners a gift. If they mentioned the show in the emails at info@codamg.com. We will send them a feasibility report that we've hired for a third-party feasibility consultant, and it explains the self-storage market. It also explains why we chose that market and what we look for so that people can get a better understanding of the self-storage industry. It's about a 175-page report and we aren't happy To give that to any of your listeners who reference this show.

Brett:

Thanks, Scott Krone for being on the show. I also thank our listeners for listening to the episode of the capital gains tax wishes podcast. As always, we believe most high net worth individuals and those who help them they start with clarifying their Capital Gains Tax Deferral Options. Now having a clear plan is the enemy and using proven tax deferral strategies such as the Deferred Sales Trust, or Opportunity Zones with as someone who has a proven track record self-storage developer owner, all of the above value add investor Scott Krone as the best way for you to grow your wealth. we encourage you to go to CapitalGainsTaxSolutions.com, you want to learn about the Deferred Sales Trust and get with Scott again at codamg.com. To learn more about Opportunity Zones and Self-Storage Investing. Also, we're also streaming this on eXpert CRE Secrets for our Commercial Real Estate Brokers out there, M&A Advisors, Business Brokers, we're hoping that you're enjoying this content, and you're thinking about how this can grow your business by solving problems for your clients, and if you want to level that up and look at coaching and how we help our strategic alliances across the US do that you can also go to eXpertTaxSecrets.com It's eXpertTaxSecrets.com. Please Rate Review, Subscribe, please share this with somebody who could help. We appreciate everyone out there.